---

Hvad kan siges om Guds kærlighed, og hvordan analyserer man den ?
Jeg kunne godt tænke mig en tråd med forskellige kommentarer/citater ang.
Guds kærlighed, og lægger hermed ud med et uddrag fra J. I. Packer's bog,
"Knowing God" :

How should we define and analyze it? In answer
to this question, the Bible sets forth a conception of God's love which we
may formulate as follows:
God's love is an exercise of his goodness toward individual sinners whereby,
having
identified himself with their welfare, he has given his son to be their
savior, and now
brings them to know and enjoy him in a covenant relation.

Let us explain the constituent parts of this definition.

1. God's love is an exercise af his goodness. The Bible means by God's
goodness his cosmic generosity. Goodness in God, writes Berkhof, is
that perfection in God which prompts him to deal bountifully and kindly
with all His creatures. It is the affection which the Creator feels towards
His sentient creatures as such" (Systematic Theology, p. 70, citing Ps
145:9,
15-16; compare Lk 6:35; Acts 14:17). Of this goodness God's love is the
supreme and most glorious manifestation. "Love, generally ," wrote James
Orr", is that principle which leads one moral being to desire and delight
in another, and reaches its highest form in that personal fellowship in
which each lives in the life of the other, and finds his joy in imparting
himself to the other, and in receiving back the outflow of that other's
affection unto himself" (Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, III, 153). Such
is the
love of God.

2. God's love is an exercise of his goodness toward sinners. As such, it has
the nature of grace and mercy. It is an outgoing of God in kindness which
not merely is undeserved, but is actually contrary to desert; for the ob-
jects of God's love are rational creatures who have broken God's law,
whose nature is corrupt in God's sight, and who merit only condemnation
and final banishment from his presence.
It is staggering that God should love sinners; yet it is true. God loves
creatures who have become unlovely and (one would have thought) un-
lovable. There was nothing whatever in the objects of his love to call it
forth; nothing in us could attract or prompt it. Love among persons is
awakened by something in the beloved, but the love of God is free, spon-
taneous, unevoked, uncaused. God loves people because he has chosen to
love them-as Charles Wesley put it, "he hath loved us, he hath loved us,
because he would love" (an echo of Deut 7:7-8)-and no reason for his
love can be given except his own sovereign good pleasure.
The Greek and Roman world of New Testament times had never
dreamed of such love; its gods were often credited with lusting after
women, but never with loving sinners; and the New Testament writers
had to introduce what was virtually a new Greek word, agape, to express
the love of God as they knew it.

3. God's love is an exercise of his goodness toward individuaI sinners. It
is not
a vague, diffused good will toward everyone in general and nobody in
particular; rather, as being a function of omniscient almightiness, its na-
ture is to particularize both its objects and its effects. God's purpose of
love, formed before creation (Eph 1:4), involved, first, the choice and
selection of those whom he would bless and, second, the appointment of
the benefits to be given them and the means whereby these benefits
would be procured and enjoyed. All this was made sure from the start.
So Paul writes to the Thessalonian Christians, "We are bound to give
thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God
chose you [selection] from the beginning [before creation] to be saved [the
appointed end], through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth
[the appointed means]" (2 Thess 2:13 RSV). The exercise of God's love
toward individual sinners in time is the execution of his purpose to bless
thos

---

---

"Avatar" <jesusavatar@hotmail.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:HZ8%5.6408$9t1.26912@twister.sunsite.dk...
>
> YEAH ! skrev i meddelelsen <91irad$7aj$1@news.inet.tele.dk>...
> >
> >Jeg kunne godt tænke mig en tråd med forskellige kommentarer/citater ang.
> >Guds kærlighed
>
> God ide...her er et par stykker:
---------
[CUT]

Dine citater handlede nu ikke om Guds kærlighed, men derimod om mennesker
der foragter og hader den Gud som har givet dem livet, og som frivilligt
døde for deres synd. Mennesker der stiller sig anklagende op imod deres
skaber, spotter og gør sig bedre end Ham.

jørgen.

---

"Avatar" <jesusavatar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:HZ8%5.6408$9t1.26912@twister.sunsite.dk...
:
: YEAH ! skrev i meddelelsen <91irad$7aj$1@news.inet.tele.dk>...
: >
: >Jeg kunne godt tænke mig en tråd med forskellige kommentarer/citater ang.
: >Guds kærlighed
:
: God ide...her er et par stykker:
:
:
: The god of the Bible measures up to the level of a petty and vicious
tyrant.
: The god of the bible punishes babies for the sins of their parents (Ex
20:5,
: 34:7; Num 14:18; 2 Sam 12:13-19); punishes people by causing them to
become
: cannibals and eat their children (2 Ki 6:24-33, Lam 4:10-11); gives people
: bad laws, even requiring the sacrifice of their firstborn babies, so that
: they can be filled with horror and know that god is their lord (Ez
: 20:25-26); causes people to believe lies so that he can send them to hell
(2
: Thess 2:11), and many other atrocities, far too many to list here. It
would
: not be hard to measure up to, and exceed, that level of moral purity.
: Atheists surpass it every day.
: -Doug Krueger
:
: The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it
describes
: God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the
: political behavior of Western Civilization.
: - Robert A. Wilson
:
: According to the Bible, God was ignorant, a ruthless liar and cheat; he
: broke his pledges, changed his mind so often that he grew weary of
: repenting. He was a murderer of children, ordered his people to slay,
rape,
: steal, and lie and commit every foul and filthy abomination in human
power.
: In fact, the more I read the Bible the less I find in it that is either
: credible or admirable.
: - Rupert Hughes
:
: God says do what you wish, but make the wrong choice and you will be
: tortured for eternity in hell. That sir, is not free will. It would be
akin
: to a man telling his girlfriend, do what you wish, but if you choose to
: leave me, I will track you down and blow your brains out. When a man says
: this we call him a psychopath and cry out for his imprisonment/execution.
: When god says the same we call him loving and build churches in his honor.
: - William C. Easttom II
:
: An honest god is the noblest work of man. ... God has always resembled his
: creators. He hated and loved what they hated and loved and he was
invariably
: found on the side of those in power. ... Most of the gods were pleased
with
: sacrifice, and the smell of innocent blood has ever been considered a
divine
: perfume.
: - Robert G. Ingersoll, Gods, 1879
:
: We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful
God,
: who creates faulty humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.
: -Gene Roddenberry
:
: You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it
: turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
: -Anne Lamott
:
: --
: Jesus Christ: A name that once upon a time was taken by God when he went
to
: make a short sojourn in Judea, where, failing to declare his right name
: ...he was hanged.... Had it not been for this lucky turn..., the human
race
: had been lost.
: -Voltaire
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Og med denne ultimative tilspidsning af kampen mellem ateismen og
kristendommen, kan jeg kun afvente den velgørende verdensomspændende
konfrontation, hvor jeg vil bede hævnens Gud om at min F16 riffel må ramme
dig nøjagtig midt mellem øjnene!

Amen

---

"Lyrik" <lyrik@12move.dk> mælte sligt:

>Og med denne ultimative tilspidsning af kampen mellem ateismen og
>kristendommen, kan jeg kun afvente den velgørende verdensomspændende
>konfrontation, hvor jeg vil bede hævnens Gud om at min F16 riffel må ramme
>dig nøjagtig midt mellem øjnene!

Suk.... og så i en tråd, der hedder "Guds kærlighed"?

Lyrik, skærp dig!


--
-=-=-=-=-=-= The stylus is more potent than the claymore =-=-=-=-=-=-
* Rasmus Underbjerg Pinnerup <> }{obbes (ICQ UIN="4070320") *
* hobbes@post1.tele.dk <> http://home1.inet.tele.dk/hobbes/index.html *
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Errare humanum est, ignoscere pariter =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

---

"Rasmus Underbjerg Pinnerup" <hobbes@post1.tele.dk> wrote in message
news:i6mq3t8500a1lpfr7342ug6ghm1r422i0f@4ax.com...
: "Lyrik" <lyrik@12move.dk> mælte sligt:
:
: >Og med denne ultimative tilspidsning af kampen mellem ateismen og
: >kristendommen, kan jeg kun afvente den velgørende verdensomspændende
: >konfrontation, hvor jeg vil bede hævnens Gud om at min F16 riffel må
ramme
: >dig nøjagtig midt mellem øjnene!
:
: Suk.... og så i en tråd, der hedder "Guds kærlighed"?
:
: Lyrik, skærp dig!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Tak for den moralske reprimande.
Men er jeg ikke i tråd med din opfattelse af Gud?
Han druknede da en masse mennesker i syndfloden!
Han har da været flittig til at tilintetgøre sine fjender-ikke?
Jeg er ikke dobbeltmoralsk i dette stykke.
Kristendommen bærer hjertet i den ene hånd og geværet i den anden.

Kunne du bare bringes til at indsé, at der er noget der hedder at stå op for
det der er ret og at der er noget der benævnes:"lesser evil!"

Skulle de kristne have bedt til Hitler forsvandt?

mvh
og glædelig Jul

Jens Lyrik Bech

---

erik.dalgas@mail.dk
Lyrik <lyrik@12move.dk> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:Mro%5.2595$ad1.79956@news010.worldonline.dk...
> "Rasmus Underbjerg Pinnerup" <hobbes@post1.tele.dk> wrote in message
> news:i6mq3t8500a1lpfr7342ug6ghm1r422i0f@4ax.com...
> : "Lyrik" <lyrik@12move.dk> mælte sligt:
> :
> : >Og med denne ultimative tilspidsning af kampen mellem ateismen og
> : >kristendommen, kan jeg kun afvente den velgørende verdensomspændende
> : >konfrontation, hvor jeg vil bede hævnens Gud om at min F16 riffel må
> ramme
> : >dig nøjagtig midt mellem øjnene!
> :
> : Suk.... og så i en tråd, der hedder "Guds kærlighed"?
> :
> : Lyrik, skærp dig!
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Tak for den moralske reprimande.
> Men er jeg ikke i tråd med din opfattelse af Gud?
> Han druknede da en masse mennesker i syndfloden!
> Han har da været flittig til at tilintetgøre sine fjender-ikke?
> Jeg er ikke dobbeltmoralsk i dette stykke.
> Kristendommen bærer hjertet i den ene hånd og geværet i den anden.

Men folk dér ville ikke tage imod ham, fordi han var på vej til Jerusalem.
Da hans disciple, Jakob og Johannes, så det, sagde de: »Herre! vil du, at vi
skal byde ild fare ned fra Himmelen og fortære dem [således som Elias
gjorde]?« Men han vendte sig og satte dem i rette [og sagde: »I ved ikke, af
hvad ånd I er. Thi Menneskesønnen er ikke kommen for at ødelægge
menneskeliv, men for at frelse dem«]. Så gik de til en anden landsby. Luk
9,53-56.

> Kunne du bare bringes til at indsé, at der er noget der hedder at stå op
for
> det der er ret og at der er noget der benævnes:"lesser evil!"
>
> Skulle de kristne have bedt til Hitler forsvandt?

Thi den kamp, vi skal kæmpe, er ikke mod kød og blod, men mod magterne og
myndighederne, mod verdensherskerne i dette mørke, mod ondskabens åndemagter
i himmelrummet. Ef.6,12.

> mvh
> og glædelig Jul

I lige måde, Lyrik. Og lad nu ikke "hedningenes fnysen", spolere
julehumøret, for dig.

Mvh

Erik Dalgas

---

"Lyrik" <lyrik@12move.dk> mælte sligt:

>Tak for den moralske reprimande.

Du er så velkommen

>Men er jeg ikke i tråd med din opfattelse af Gud?

Nej, du er i tråd med en sådan opfattelse af Gud, der fremgår af en
bogstavelig læsning af visse gammeltestamentlige tekster. Du er muligvis
i tråd med visse andre deltageres opfattelse af Gud.

I den omfang jeg overhovedet forestiller mig en Gud, er han ikke en
barbarisk, jaloux territorial Gud.

>Han druknede da en masse mennesker i syndfloden!
>Han har da været flittig til at tilintetgøre sine fjender-ikke?

Jo, ifølge en sådan gudsopfattelse, som kommer til udtryk i store dele
af GT.

>Jeg er ikke dobbeltmoralsk i dette stykke.

Nej?

>Kristendommen bærer hjertet i den ene hånd og geværet i den anden.

Sørgeligt. Hjertet burde have en mere fremtrædende plads.

>Kunne du bare bringes til at indsé, at der er noget der hedder at stå op for
>det der er ret og at der er noget der benævnes:"lesser evil!"

Læser du ikke mine indlæg? Bare fordi jeg ikke er enig med dig i, hvad
der er ret, betyder det så, at jeg ikke mener, at man bør stå op for
det, der er ret? Hvis du tror det, da kan jeg love dig, at du tager
fejl. Jeg står gladeligt op for de sager, jeg finder rette, men det er
ikke nødvendigvis de samme som du.

>Skulle de kristne have bedt til Hitler forsvandt?

Ja?

>og glædelig Jul

Til dig også,


--
-=-=-=-=-=-= The stylus is more potent than the claymore =-=-=-=-=-=-
* Rasmus Underbjerg Pinnerup <> }{obbes (ICQ UIN="4070320") *
* hobbes@post1.tele.dk <> http://home1.inet.tele.dk/hobbes/index.html *
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Errare humanum est, ignoscere pariter =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

---

Lyrik <lyrik@12move.dk> skrev i en
nyhedsmeddelelse:uEc%5.659$8z5.59151@news000.worldonline.dk...
> "Avatar" <jesusavatar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:HZ8%5.6408$9t1.26912@twister.sunsite.dk...
>
> Og med denne ultimative tilspidsning af kampen mellem ateismen og
> kristendommen, kan jeg kun afvente den velgørende verdensomspændende
> konfrontation, hvor jeg vil bede hævnens Gud om at min F16 riffel må ramme
> dig nøjagtig midt mellem øjnene!
>
> Amen

M16, Jens Erik, M16!

Det andet er et jagerfly!

Og hvornår kommer så din trekvartfascistiske "hævnens time", hvor du
egenhændigt vil nedslagte "de vantro"? Er det virkelig dèt, du ønsker og
dèt, du er "kristen" for? Er du SÅ primitiv?

Det er ironisk at der konstant tales om "kamp" fra kristendommens side når
ateister benytter deres grundlovssikrede talefrihed. Hvorfor denne
blodtørst?

--
Anders Peter Johnsen

---

On Mon, 18 Dec 2000 10:16:57 +0100, "anderspj"
<anderspj@post8.tele.dk> wrote:

>Lyrik <lyrik@12move.dk> skrev i en
>nyhedsmeddelelse:uEc%5.659$8z5.59151@news000.worldonline.dk...
>> "Avatar" <jesusavatar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:HZ8%5.6408$9t1.26912@twister.sunsite.dk...
>>
>> Og med denne ultimative tilspidsning af kampen mellem ateismen og
>> kristendommen, kan jeg kun afvente den velgørende verdensomspændende
>> konfrontation, hvor jeg vil bede hævnens Gud om at min F16 riffel må ramme
>> dig nøjagtig midt mellem øjnene!
>>
>> Amen
>
>M16, Jens Erik, M16!
>
>Det andet er et jagerfly!
>
>Og hvornår kommer så din trekvartfascistiske "hævnens time", hvor du
>egenhændigt vil nedslagte "de vantro"? Er det virkelig dèt, du ønsker og
>dèt, du er "kristen" for? Er du SÅ primitiv?
>
>Det er ironisk at der konstant tales om "kamp" fra kristendommens side når
>ateister benytter deres grundlovssikrede talefrihed. Hvorfor denne
>blodtørst?


Det står vel i bibelen at man skal være kærlig med hård hånd

De fleste krige er jo i Gud's navn...... og så denne tråd "Guds
kærlighed" det er til at grine af.

Men ak, der skal nok komme et lys til de kristne også en dag.....

Så nu får jeg tæsk og bliver skudt og alt det der....
Håber i alle har et godt liv, med eller uden al jeres had til
meneskerne i blandt jer

---

Her lidt mere om Guds kærlighed, og hvordan den bør virke i os til at elske
vor næste. Læg bla. mærke til sammenligningen mellem Kain og Abel og
vægtlægningen på det at kende Gud.

Love's Way: 1 John 3:11-24
From the beginning God's message to man has been "love one another" (v. 11).
Yet somehow the attitude of Cain has intruded. The Old Testament commanded,
You shall "love your neighbor as yourself" (Lev. 19:18). The Dictionary of
New Testament Theology, (Zondervan) comments, "Love in this context means
devotion toward one's neighbor for his sake, accepting him as a brother and
letting him come into his own."
Yet among the passions that move us, a spontaneous love for others is
missing. We can respond affectionately and even unselfishly to those with
whom we have a special tie. But even family relationships may degenerate
into the anger of Cain. Hurts, frustrations, real and imagined slights, all
build up. The exploding divorce rate and the deep canyons of alienation that
mar so many families today are vivid evidence that the way of Cain is still
with us.

The contrast is especially glaring when we see how John used the word "love"
(agape). Love is a central reality of God's nature. "God is love," John
reminded us (1 John 4:8). God expresses love in the gift of Jesus; we
receive that gift by a response of love. Knowing that we are loved and
loving in return drives out the fear that destroys trust (v. 18). One who is
God's and who walks in His light will necessarily live in love. Such love
will not only change the character of an individual's relationship with God
but also the nature of his relationship with other people. If we truly live
in God, then we will live in love, for God is love.

God promises us who know Jesus that the reactions and responses of Cain will
be replaced by the reactions and responses of Christ. John immediately
confronts us with this contrast: "Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the
evil one and and murdered his brother" (3:12). Did the murder drive Cain
into Satan's hands? Not at all. In fact, the murder demonstrated how deep
Cain already was in the evil one's grip.

Why did Cain murder Abel? Was it due to slights or parental unfairness? No,
it was "because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous"
(v. 12). Abel's good revealed Cain's sinfulness. Rather than acknowledging
his sins, Cain tried to hide them from himself. He turned his shame into
anger at Abel; antagonism welled up in his heart; he murdered in hatred. The
entire process makes it plain that Cain did not know God.
And so we return to the theme of John's letter. How can we be confident that
we know God? As we love our brothers, we can be reassured that we walk not
in Cain's darkness but in Christ's light.
Contrast (1 John 3:11-15). John held up Cain and Christ for us to compare.
Cain reacted with hatred to a brother who was good. Christ responds with
love to sinners who reject God. Each expresses his feelings in action. Cain
took another's life. Christ gave His own life for others. Cain's actions
revealed him to be evil. Christ shows Himself to be good, a God of love.

Earlier John contrasted light and darkness to help us understand the
Christian life. Now he contrasted love and hatred. No one who hates lives in
God. But one who lives in God will love.
Love's expression (1 John 3:16-20). John is quick to note that love is not a
feeling or an intention. Love is a choice that binds us to a distinctive
course of action. "We ought to lay down our lives for our brothers," John
said. "If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but
has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?" (vv. 16-17) Love is
not a matter of words but of acts.
Then John added, "This then is how we know we belong to the truth, and how
we set our hearts at rest in His presence whenever our hearts condemn us"
(vv. 19-20). John noted earlier that we may become discourag

---

Lyrik skrev i meddelelsen ...
>
>Og med denne ultimative tilspidsning af kampen mellem ateismen og
>kristendommen, kan jeg kun afvente den velgørende verdensomspændende
>konfrontation, hvor jeg vil bede hævnens Gud om at min F16 riffel må ramme
>dig nøjagtig midt mellem øjnene!


" LYRIK - A Man and His God Against the World "

....featuring:
Jens Erik Bech as Lyrik - the Holy Sniper

hmm...ikke for at knuse dine Rambo-drengedrømme, men jeg tvivler stærkt på,
at den "verdensomspændende konfrontation" du snakker om nogensinde vil finde
sted.
Er din gud virkelig så svag, at han ikke kan "ordne" mig uden hjælp ?

--
Menneskers fred